It's been a while since I posted thanks for hanging in there. McCain is the man and he is no conservative, but he could hold the Presidency for us.
I think it is time to really define conservatism and compare it to liberalism.
I want to start with excerpt's from conversations with Jonah Goldberg Los Angeles Times columnist, longtime contributing editor to the National Review, who has written Liberal Fascism: The Secret History Of The American Left From Mussolini To The Politics Of Meaning.
The conversation is with Hugh Hewitt.
HH:
Now obviously, this is a book of intellectual history, but it’s also a
romp through American and European history. And let’s begin with
fascism itself. It’s a particular style and structure of government,
and it’s got a history in the United States. And despite those sloppy
references to Bush-Hitler and the fascists of the right, et cetera, I
think the key to your argument is that the fascist tendencies have
overwhelmingly, though not exclusively, been on the left in America,
and that they were within the 20th Century Democratic Party,
and that those tendencies are alive and well today. Is that a fair
statement of sort of the arching theme of Liberal Fascism, Jonah
Goldberg?
JG: It certainly…I think it’s entirely fair for the arguments of the
book after, say, the first two chapters and the introduction, where
there, I try to place Nazism and fascism, in their classical
expressions in Europe, as left wing phenomenon. And then when I move to
America, I think you’ve pretty much gotten it right.
HH:
“American liberalism is a totalitarian, political religion, but not
necessarily an Orwellian one. It is nice, not brutal. Nannying, not
bullying, but it is definitely totalitarian, or holistic, if you
prefer, and that liberalism today sees no realm of human life that is
beyond political significance, from what you eat to what you smoke to
what you say. Sex is political. Food is political. Sports,
entertainment, your inner motives and your outer appearances all have
political salience for liberal fascists.” Now Jonah, you probably have
taken a lot of bricks already, but that line, as well as the line about
the white men being the Jews of liberal fascism, are probably the two
that got you the most heat. Am I correct about that?
JG: I would guess. I mean, it’s sort of, it’s kind of like picking
out which pieces of flak that caused the most damage when they hit me.
HH:
Well, let’s dive in so that people get a sense of this. This is
way…we’re going to spend two hours on Liberal Fascism, America, and
you’re still going to have to go and get the book and read deeply in
it. But it’s also wonderfully written and funny and witty, and full of
a lot of substantive arguments that you haven’t seen before, and a lot
of history you need to know. Starting with, I think, one of the
revelations I’m going to make sure that my law students know going
forward, and this audience knows, is that fascism does not necessarily
include anti-Semitism. It has, but Spain and Italy, before Hitler, were
fascist, and they were not anti-Semitic, and I think this clears up a
lot of misunderstanding of what you mean when you talk about fascism,
Jonah Goldberg.
JG: That’s right. I mean, fascism comes of age much like
nationalism, and the two were intertwined. And nationalism brings out
the characteristics of a given people at a given time. And so when I
say there’s an American fascism around the time of World War I, it’s
bringing out American qualities. It’s not going to look like German
fascism or Italian fascism, because America is different than these
places. And similarly, that’s one of the reasons why I go through
Italy, and I point out that the Italians simply weren’t an anti-Semitic
people, and Jews were in fact overrepresented in the Italian Fascist
Party from its founding until 1938, when basically, the Nazis forced
the Italians to kick their Jews out. And the story of Italian heroism,
even after 1938, in trying to save Jewish lives, has been totally
airbrushed from the popular understanding of the history of fascism and
of World War II. Not a single Jew of any nationality was sent from
Italy, or from anywhere under Italian control, to the concentration
camps until 1943, when the Germans, in effect, invade Italy and take it
over. And that’s when the bad stuff happens to Jews in Italy, and
Italian-occupied areas. And in fascist Spain, nothing bad happened to
the Jews. The safest direction to walk in Europe when the Germans start
coming after the Jews is south, not north.
G:
Well, there are a bunch of different arguments. I mean, basically, the
fundamental argument is I argue that in Western civilization, there was
what I call a fascist moment. And you know, if people don’t like the
word fascist, we can put it aside for a second and call it a
collectivist moment. But there was this moment where the idea of
laissez-faire capitalism seemed to have died. The idea of liberal
democracy and individualism seemed to have been discredited. George
Bernard Shaw, Mussolini, all these guys, they referred to, they kept
using the phrase ‘a putrifying corpse’, that the classical liberalism
of the 19th Century was over, done with, and what was needed
was a new era of statism. And this was the motivating passion of
intellectuals on both sides of the Atlantic. And deeply aiding this
idea was the birth of philosophical pragmatism coming from William
James. William James basically tries to marry…
HH: You’ve got to explain to people who William James is.
JG: Sure. William James is technically the founder of American
pragmatism, hugely important American philosopher. And pragmatism,
basically, all it tried to do was say that all the old rules, all the
old dogmas of classical liberalism, of Newtonian physics, all that,
they could all be thrown by the wayside, and that truth was now
relative, and that we could define truth by what James called cash
value. And we now lived in a universe with the lid off, is what James
liked to say. And what James and Nietzsche in Europe, and others, what
they basically did was they were overturning the settled authority of
philosophy, and basically saying that men could will any reality they
wanted. And in many ways, what fascism is, is a marriage of James’ will
to believe with Nietzsche’s will to power. And it’s not a coincidence
that Mussolini often cited William James as one of the three most
important philosophers in his life.
HH:
Jonah, at the risk of doing something that will have program directors
across the United States screaming at me, I want to talk about
Rousseau. This may in fact be the first time…
JG: (laughing)
HH: …ever on talk radio that Rousseau has been brought up. But I
don’t know how you get to fascism unless you cover Rousseau to the
French Revolution, and then on to the branches in Europe and America.
And basically, it’s Rousseau’s radicalism which unleashed the whirlwind
on the West.
JG: Right, I mean, and there are two ways to talk about this.
There’s the intellectual history, which I think is what you’re getting
at, where basically it goes French Revolution…the French Revolution, I
argue, is the first fascist revolution. It merges nationalism with
populism. It tries to replace God with the state. You have these
intellectual revolutionaries who use terror and violence to remake
society and start over at year zero. They create a secular religion out
of politics, where they change the traditional Christian holidays to
state holidays. And all of this gets replayed in Nazi Germany, and
fascist Italy, and in the Soviet Union. But I think there’s an
important point to be made, which is that this, it’s not necessarily
that the fascists of Nazi Germany were inspired by Rousseau, it’s that
the same thing was happening again, that they were following the same
sort of Rousseauian path. And Rousseau, as a philosopher, he basically
gives word to a desire that beats in every human heart, to create a
tribe out of society, to create, to impose this notion of the general
will, where anybody who deviates from what the collective thinks he
should do is a heretic or a traitor, to sanctify politics. And that’s
what inspired the French revolutionaries. That’s what they took from
Rousseau. And in many ways, that’s what people like Mussolini and
Hitler took from the French Revolution, is this same sort of burning
desire to create a religion of the state. And we see the same thing
that happened in the French Revolution replay itself in Germany, and to
a lesser extent, replay itself in fascist Italy.
HH: And you know, it’s the same temptation over and over again, and
it’s one abroad in the land right now, which is why I want to pause on
this, which is Rousseau believed that man was good, you know, that the
state came along, or that society came along and screwed things up, but
that actually, that men were innately good. And that’s simply not a
conservative view, Jonah Goldberg. It’s anti-conservative. It’s also
anti-theology in most senses.
JG: Right. I mean, I think the fundamental difference, the
difference that defines the difference between American, Anglo-American
conservatives and European welfare states, leftists or liberals, is
Locke versus Rousseau. Every philosophical argument boils down to John
Locke versus Jacques Rousseau.
HH: Yup.
JG: Rousseau says the government is there, that our rights come from
the government, that come from the collective. Locke says our rights
come from God, and that we only create a government to protect our
interests. The Rousseauian says you can make a religion out of society
and politics, and the Lockean says no, religion is a separate sphere
from politics. And that is the defining distinction between the two,
and I think that distinction also runs through the human heart, that we
all have a Rousseauian temptation in us. And it’s the job of
conservatives to remind people that the Lockean in us needs to win.
HH:
You also write on Page 55, “What Hitler got from Italian fascism was
the importance of an idea that would arouse the masses.” And you go on
to just chart, he was a man of the left again and again and again, and
he was also an anti-capitalist at crucial moments.
JG: That’s right. I mean, at some point, it seems entirely fair to
take 50% of the name that makes up Nazi seriously. The national
socialists were socialists. They believed in socialism. The speech that
converts, that woos Adolf Hitler to the German Workers’ Socialist Party
was titled “By What Means Shall Capitalism Be Eliminated?” Hitler talks
about it in Mein Kampf. He explains the Nazi Party flag, which we’ve
all seen in the movies as this giant red flag with a white disc in the
middle…
HH:
Next hour, we’re going to focus more on American history and the
current situation of the Democratic Party and the left wing of the
United States. But we’re getting there this hour. And we started with
one of the reasons so much anger at Jonah is the fact that he’s
replacing Hitler where Hitler needs to be on the ideological spectrum,
not as a right wing dictator, but as a left wing dictator. Quoting now,
“For decades, the left has cherry picked the facts to form a caricature
of what the Third Reich was about. The very large and substantial
leftist and socialist aspects of Nazism were shrunk to the status of
trivia, the obsession of cranks and Hitler apologists. The Nazis,”
Jonah writes, “rose to power, exploiting anti-capitalist rhetoric they
indisputably believed. And for these reasons, Hitler deserves to be
placed firmly on the left, because first and foremost, he was a
revolutionary. Broadly speaking, the left is the party of change, the
right is the party of the status quo. On this score, Hitler was in so
sense, way, shape or form, a man of the right.” Now Jonah, this
particular assertion on your part, how much of the opposition to your
book has come out of this assertion?
JG: You know, a lot. I mean, there’s this real reluctance from
people…the left loves having Hitler as a cudgel to use against the
right. And so, you know, a lot of the response has been Goldberg can’t
be true, because everyone knows that we get to use Hitler. And we get
to use Hitler against our enemies, and it’s outrageous to sort of upset
that apple cart. But I want to add one quick point about that, is that
it’s not just…I mean, I think the socialism part alone should settle
the argument in a lot of ways, but it’s important to point out it’s not
just socialism. American conservatism, as you know, or Anglo-American
conservatism, rests on essentially two points. On the one hand is the
free market, limited government, anti-socialism belief in
entrepreneurialism and all the rest. And the second part of it is an
affinity for tradition, for traditional religion, orthodox religion,
Christianity and the rest. And Hitler despised all of those things. He
despised not only sort of the Manchester liberalism of free markets,
but he also hated orthodox Christianity. He hated, he thought
Christianity was a foreign import, that it ruined Germany, which had a
more pure, pagan, Earth-bound faith. He hated…the one thing he liked
the social Democrats for was that they got rid of the monarchy. He
hated the aristocracy. He hated the established institutions at
universities. He hated the experts, all of that. In every way, he was a
radical that we would say, just as a Martian vis
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