It's been a while since I posted thanks for hanging in there. McCain is the man and he is no conservative, but he could hold the Presidency for us.
I think it is time to really define conservatism and compare it to liberalism.
I want to start with excerpt's from conversations with Jonah Goldberg Los Angeles Times columnist, longtime contributing editor to the National Review, who has written Liberal Fascism: The Secret History Of The American Left From Mussolini To The Politics Of Meaning.
The conversation is with Hugh Hewitt.
HH:
Now obviously, this is a book of intellectual history, but it’s also a
romp through American and European history. And let’s begin with
fascism itself. It’s a particular style and structure of government,
and it’s got a history in the United States. And despite those sloppy
references to Bush-Hitler and the fascists of the right, et cetera, I
think the key to your argument is that the fascist tendencies have
overwhelmingly, though not exclusively, been on the left in America,
and that they were within the 20th Century Democratic Party,
and that those tendencies are alive and well today. Is that a fair
statement of sort of the arching theme of Liberal Fascism, Jonah
Goldberg?
JG: It certainly…I think it’s entirely fair for the arguments of the
book after, say, the first two chapters and the introduction, where
there, I try to place Nazism and fascism, in their classical
expressions in Europe, as left wing phenomenon. And then when I move to
America, I think you’ve pretty much gotten it right.
HH:
“American liberalism is a totalitarian, political religion, but not
necessarily an Orwellian one. It is nice, not brutal. Nannying, not
bullying, but it is definitely totalitarian, or holistic, if you
prefer, and that liberalism today sees no realm of human life that is
beyond political significance, from what you eat to what you smoke to
what you say. Sex is political. Food is political. Sports,
entertainment, your inner motives and your outer appearances all have
political salience for liberal fascists.” Now Jonah, you probably have
taken a lot of bricks already, but that line, as well as the line about
the white men being the Jews of liberal fascism, are probably the two
that got you the most heat. Am I correct about that?
JG: I would guess. I mean, it’s sort of, it’s kind of like picking
out which pieces of flak that caused the most damage when they hit me.
HH:
Well, let’s dive in so that people get a sense of this. This is
way…we’re going to spend two hours on Liberal Fascism, America, and
you’re still going to have to go and get the book and read deeply in
it. But it’s also wonderfully written and funny and witty, and full of
a lot of substantive arguments that you haven’t seen before, and a lot
of history you need to know. Starting with, I think, one of the
revelations I’m going to make sure that my law students know going
forward, and this audience knows, is that fascism does not necessarily
include anti-Semitism. It has, but Spain and Italy, before Hitler, were
fascist, and they were not anti-Semitic, and I think this clears up a
lot of misunderstanding of what you mean when you talk about fascism,
Jonah Goldberg.
JG: That’s right. I mean, fascism comes of age much like
nationalism, and the two were intertwined. And nationalism brings out
the characteristics of a given people at a given time. And so when I
say there’s an American fascism around the time of World War I, it’s
bringing out American qualities. It’s not going to look like German
fascism or Italian fascism, because America is different than these
places. And similarly, that’s one of the reasons why I go through
Italy, and I point out that the Italians simply weren’t an anti-Semitic
people, and Jews were in fact overrepresented in the Italian Fascist
Party from its founding until 1938, when basically, the Nazis forced
the Italians to kick their Jews out. And the story of Italian heroism,
even after 1938, in trying to save Jewish lives, has been totally
airbrushed from the popular understanding of the history of fascism and
of World War II. Not a single Jew of any nationality was sent from
Italy, or from anywhere under Italian control, to the concentration
camps until 1943, when the Germans, in effect, invade Italy and take it
over. And that’s when the bad stuff happens to Jews in Italy, and
Italian-occupied areas. And in fascist Spain, nothing bad happened to
the Jews. The safest direction to walk in Europe when the Germans start
coming after the Jews is south, not north.
G:
Well, there are a bunch of different arguments. I mean, basically, the
fundamental argument is I argue that in Western civilization, there was
what I call a fascist moment. And you know, if people don’t like the
word fascist, we can put it aside for a second and call it a
collectivist moment. But there was this moment where the idea of
laissez-faire capitalism seemed to have died. The idea of liberal
democracy and individualism seemed to have been discredited. George
Bernard Shaw, Mussolini, all these guys, they referred to, they kept
using the phrase ‘a putrifying corpse’, that the classical liberalism
of the 19th Century was over, done with, and what was needed
was a new era of statism. And this was the motivating passion of
intellectuals on both sides of the Atlantic. And deeply aiding this
idea was the birth of philosophical pragmatism coming from William
James. William James basically tries to marry…
HH: You’ve got to explain to people who William James is.
JG: Sure. William James is technically the founder of American
pragmatism, hugely important American philosopher. And pragmatism,
basically, all it tried to do was say that all the old rules, all the
old dogmas of classical liberalism, of Newtonian physics, all that,
they could all be thrown by the wayside, and that truth was now
relative, and that we could define truth by what James called cash
value. And we now lived in a universe with the lid off, is what James
liked to say. And what James and Nietzsche in Europe, and others, what
they basically did was they were overturning the settled authority of
philosophy, and basically saying that men could will any reality they
wanted. And in many ways, what fascism is, is a marriage of James’ will
to believe with Nietzsche’s will to power. And it’s not a coincidence
that Mussolini often cited William James as one of the three most
important philosophers in his life.
HH:
Jonah, at the risk of doing something that will have program directors
across the United States screaming at me, I want to talk about
Rousseau. This may in fact be the first time…
JG: (laughing)
HH: …ever on talk radio that Rousseau has been brought up. But I
don’t know how you get to fascism unless you cover Rousseau to the
French Revolution, and then on to the branches in Europe and America.
And basically, it’s Rousseau’s radicalism which unleashed the whirlwind
on the West.
JG: Right, I mean, and there are two ways to talk about this.
There’s the intellectual history, which I think is what you’re getting
at, where basically it goes French Revolution…the French Revolution, I
argue, is the first fascist revolution. It merges nationalism with
populism. It tries to replace God with the state. You have these
intellectual revolutionaries who use terror and violence to remake
society and start over at year zero. They create a secular religion out
of politics, where they change the traditional Christian holidays to
state holidays. And all of this gets replayed in Nazi Germany, and
fascist Italy, and in the Soviet Union. But I think there’s an
important point to be made, which is that this, it’s not necessarily
that the fascists of Nazi Germany were inspired by Rousseau, it’s that
the same thing was happening again, that they were following the same
sort of Rousseauian path. And Rousseau, as a philosopher, he basically
gives word to a desire that beats in every human heart, to create a
tribe out of society, to create, to impose this notion of the general
will, where anybody who deviates from what the collective thinks he
should do is a heretic or a traitor, to sanctify politics. And that’s
what inspired the French revolutionaries. That’s what they took from
Rousseau. And in many ways, that’s what people like Mussolini and
Hitler took from the French Revolution, is this same sort of burning
desire to create a religion of the state. And we see the same thing
that happened in the French Revolution replay itself in Germany, and to
a lesser extent, replay itself in fascist Italy.
HH: And you know, it’s the same temptation over and over again, and
it’s one abroad in the land right now, which is why I want to pause on
this, which is Rousseau believed that man was good, you know, that the
state came along, or that society came along and screwed things up, but
that actually, that men were innately good. And that’s simply not a
conservative view, Jonah Goldberg. It’s anti-conservative. It’s also
anti-theology in most senses.
JG: Right. I mean, I think the fundamental difference, the
difference that defines the difference between American, Anglo-American
conservatives and European welfare states, leftists or liberals, is
Locke versus Rousseau. Every philosophical argument boils down to John
Locke versus Jacques Rousseau.
HH: Yup.
JG: Rousseau says the government is there, that our rights come from
the government, that come from the collective. Locke says our rights
come from God, and that we only create a government to protect our
interests. The Rousseauian says you can make a religion out of society
and politics, and the Lockean says no, religion is a separate sphere
from politics. And that is the defining distinction between the two,
and I think that distinction also runs through the human heart, that we
all have a Rousseauian temptation in us. And it’s the job of
conservatives to remind people that the Lockean in us needs to win.
HH:
You also write on Page 55, “What Hitler got from Italian fascism was
the importance of an idea that would arouse the masses.” And you go on
to just chart, he was a man of the left again and again and again, and
he was also an anti-capitalist at crucial moments.
JG: That’s right. I mean, at some point, it seems entirely fair to
take 50% of the name that makes up Nazi seriously. The national
socialists were socialists. They believed in socialism. The speech that
converts, that woos Adolf Hitler to the German Workers’ Socialist Party
was titled “By What Means Shall Capitalism Be Eliminated?” Hitler talks
about it in Mein Kampf. He explains the Nazi Party flag, which we’ve
all seen in the movies as this giant red flag with a white disc in the
middle…
HH:
Next hour, we’re going to focus more on American history and the
current situation of the Democratic Party and the left wing of the
United States. But we’re getting there this hour. And we started with
one of the reasons so much anger at Jonah is the fact that he’s
replacing Hitler where Hitler needs to be on the ideological spectrum,
not as a right wing dictator, but as a left wing dictator. Quoting now,
“For decades, the left has cherry picked the facts to form a caricature
of what the Third Reich was about. The very large and substantial
leftist and socialist aspects of Nazism were shrunk to the status of
trivia, the obsession of cranks and Hitler apologists. The Nazis,”
Jonah writes, “rose to power, exploiting anti-capitalist rhetoric they
indisputably believed. And for these reasons, Hitler deserves to be
placed firmly on the left, because first and foremost, he was a
revolutionary. Broadly speaking, the left is the party of change, the
right is the party of the status quo. On this score, Hitler was in so
sense, way, shape or form, a man of the right.” Now Jonah, this
particular assertion on your part, how much of the opposition to your
book has come out of this assertion?
JG: You know, a lot. I mean, there’s this real reluctance from
people…the left loves having Hitler as a cudgel to use against the
right. And so, you know, a lot of the response has been Goldberg can’t
be true, because everyone knows that we get to use Hitler. And we get
to use Hitler against our enemies, and it’s outrageous to sort of upset
that apple cart. But I want to add one quick point about that, is that
it’s not just…I mean, I think the socialism part alone should settle
the argument in a lot of ways, but it’s important to point out it’s not
just socialism. American conservatism, as you know, or Anglo-American
conservatism, rests on essentially two points. On the one hand is the
free market, limited government, anti-socialism belief in
entrepreneurialism and all the rest. And the second part of it is an
affinity for tradition, for traditional religion, orthodox religion,
Christianity and the rest. And Hitler despised all of those things. He
despised not only sort of the Manchester liberalism of free markets,
but he also hated orthodox Christianity. He hated, he thought
Christianity was a foreign import, that it ruined Germany, which had a
more pure, pagan, Earth-bound faith. He hated…the one thing he liked
the social Democrats for was that they got rid of the monarchy. He
hated the aristocracy. He hated the established institutions at
universities. He hated the experts, all of that. In every way, he was a
radical that we would say, just as a Martian visiting Planet Earth, it
would be obvious that this guy was on the left.
HH: You also write, he’s a nationalist, but not a patriot, which are very important, a very important distinction here.
JG: That’s right, and it’s an incredibly important distinction,
particularly from an American context. Americans tend not to be
nationalists. They’re patriots. You know, they’re attached to creeds
and to ideas. Hitler was a blood and soil romantic. And he deified the
race, he deified the land. But he had no sympathies for democracy, for
the constitution, for the Weimer Republic, for any of that good stuff.
He was, in the Nietzschean sense, a lover of German will and German
power, and the sort of romance of conquest. But he had no attraction
for any of the sort of redeeming things about German culture and German
life.
HH: Now…so when we get to the end of the Third Reich, we’ve got an
obvious split in America. People hate Hitler, they’re still not on to
hating the Soviets yet, and they have to define Hitler. Is it because
the Soviets, which we understood, everyone understood to be left, were
at war with the Nazis, that they became right wing, Jonah Goldberg?
JG: That’s a big part of it. I mean, you’re right. There is this
weird notion that we get when…when I say oh, well, the Nazis were on
the left, they say that’s ridiculous. They were fighting the Soviets,
that the Soviets hated them. Well, you know, first of all, the Brown
Shirts versus the red shirts was an example of sort of Coke versus
Pepsi. It wasn’t an example of opposites. The Nazis appealed directly
to the communists in Berlin, in Germany, and won them over almost
wholesale to the Brown Shirt cause. And one of the reasons why we get
this idea that fascism and Nazism are right wing is because Marxist
prophecy said well, there’s going to be a force that’s going to get in
the way of a proletarian revolution, and it’s going to be defending the
ruling classes. And so when they saw Nazism and fascism come along,
they said a-ha, this must be it. And the propagandists declared that,
the Soviet propagandists realized that the national socialists were
just simply eating the lunch of the international socialists, that
people wanted to be nationalists, they wanted to love their country,
they wanted to be part of their own culture, but they still wanted to
be socialists. And that was a much more appealing pitch. And so what
Stalin declared was that basically, any group that wasn’t loyal to
Moscow was fascist, and objectively right wing. And so during this
period, from 1928 until about 1932, FDR, according to Stalin, was a
fascist. Norman Thomas, the head of the American Socialist Party, was a
fascist. And this notion of sort of objectively right wing comes out
from this analysis of national socialism as right wing socialism, which
I think is a perfectly fine way to describe it. It was right wing
socialism, but it was still socialism.
HH:
And generally, we’ve got just two minutes in this segment. What did the
progressives want to accomplish? Obviously, it was a lot, and they were
willing to use the state to do so.
JG: Right. The progressives were essentially Christian, Siegelian
millennialists, which sounds very complicated, but basically, what they
wanted to do is they wanted to use the state to create a kingdom of
Heaven on Earth. They believed in crushing laissez-faire capitalism,
crushing individualism, expounding on a new, nationalistic
collectivism. Woodrow Wilson, in many ways, becomes the sort of
apotheosis of all of this, where he is the first president to openly
disparage the U.S. Constitution, saying we no longer need it, and we
need a new living Constitution. And the reason why so many of the
progressives support World War I is because they see it, going back to
the stuff about William James, as the perfect opportunity to find these
moral equivalents of war, to form the American people into one cohesive
whole, to get them into what John Dewey calls the social possibilities
of war, organizing the masses to rally around the state. Woodrow Wilson
defines progressivism as the need for the individual to marry his
interests to the state. And that’s what the progressives believe.
HH: And did anyone notice? The seachange, was there a conversation
among intellectual elites that this was a radical departure from the
framers’ approach to limited government and to the Lockean vision of
the world, which is you keep the government small, and personal
responsibility large? Or did it just happen because of the times?
JG: No, I think there was an expressed…they really saw that the new
explosion of understanding that comes from Darwin, that came from
Einstein’s theory of relativity…you know, Paul Johnson’s Modern Times
has a great opening, where when Einstein’s theory of relativity is
confirmed in 1905, everyone goes crazy, because they think it’s one
more scientific proof that everything is relative. And that was a
phrase that was being used a lot of the time, you know, that everything
is relative, that all morals are relative, and that all of these old
dogmas that are associated with the Constitution, with classical
liberalism, just need to be thrown aside. They’re no longer relevant.
HH:
The brightest line difference, which it’s on my last page of notes from
Liberal Fascism, is really on property rights. You can always tell a
fascist when they don’t care about property rights. And that goes to
our liberal fascist friends and to our left wing fascist friends and to
our right wing fascist…they’re all dismissive of the absolute
centrality of property rights.
JG: That’s right. I mean, I think there’s a reason why you should
talk, why fascist scholars talk about the anatomy of fascism, you know,
the sort of outside characteristics. And you can go down a whole long
checklist of things. And property rights, individual rights, free
speech rights, I mean, who are the people who getting censored? They’re
conservative speakers on college campuses that get shouted down by
mobs, and everyone says oh, well that’s just college kids being excited
and happy. But they’re quintessentially fascist tactics that we see on
those kinds of things.
HH: Let’s also go back to Woodrow Wilson, because Wilson’s got sort
of an aesthetic hold on American political thought, not really
understanding what he was or what he stood for. But as you point out in
Liberal Fascism, the best estimate is that 175,000 people went to jail
for some period of time during Wilson’s presidency, because they were
not sufficiently patriotic. That, compared to Bush’s three, I think
we’ve got Jose Padilla and a couple of other marginal cases…
JG: Right. And the issue there wasn’t that they weren’t patriotic.
HH: Right. So how does that get lost to history?
JG: It is an amazing thing. I think some of it is transference. I
kind of have this sort of belief that liberals, sort of somewhere in
their DNA, or in the recesses of their brains, they know this and they
imagine this, and they just sort of transfer it to, say, the McCarthy
period, or someplace else. It’s interesting, I once wrote a column on
this. If you Nexus it, you’ll find a lot of people keep saying we’re
going back to 1984. And I’m like, when were we ever living in 1984? But
there’s something in the cultural memory about it. The book, It Can’t
Happen Again, you know, this famous book where Joe Conason came out
with this book saying…or It Can’t Happen Here.
HH: It Can’t Happen Here, yeah.
JG: Joe Conason just wrote a book playing on that title. That
was…you know, in the actual book, the argument for why it actually can
happen here, they refer back to World War I. And what happened in World
War I was astounding. You had, as you say, hundreds of thousands of
people were arrested, you had the first propaganda ministry in Western
civilization, the Committee For Public Information, which unleashed
75,000 plainclothes propaganda agents who would go around giving
speeches, exhorting people to support the war, to support Woodrow
Wilson. You had political prisoners thrown in jail. You had people
getting shot for refusing to stand up for the National Anthem or the
Star Spangled Banner, and judges not prosecuting, or letting them off.
You had people put in jail for saying things about the president in
their own homes.
HH: Yup. We also had the dirty little rise of eugenics in American culture.
JG: Right.
HH: And I teach Oliver Wendell Holmes, and the three generations of
idiots are enough. But not a lot of people understand that from the
left came the idea of a racial superiority that the Nazis didn’t
invent. It was abroad in the land before the Nazis arose.
JG: That’s right. The progressives, all of the progressives were
eugenicists of one kind or another. There were some who were positive
eugenicists, and some were negative eugenicists. Some wanted to use the
state to actively cull out the weaker and darker and more inferior
races. Other people just wanted to lift up. But it wasn’t either or.
It’s not in the book, but one of my favorite editorials is by Herbert
Croly, who was the founder of the New Republic.
HH: Huge feature in the book, though. We’re going to come to Croly.
JG: Right.
HH: He’s in the book.
JG: The founder of the New Republic, and he’s writing this
editorial, and he says you know, there are people in the country who
say well, if we can just improve the lot of the poor, that that would
have this positive eugenic effect. And there are other people who say
no, we have to weed out the unfit. And Croly says well, you know, it’s
really both. We need to both lift up, and then anybody who’s left
behind, well of course, everyone will agree that we’ve just got to get
rid of those people.
HH: Right. And the Croly…let’s talk a little bit about him, because
he is sort of the godfather of the American intellectual left. He
founds this magazine, and he, from the beginning, is all about
centralizing power and destroying institutions, especially invading the
home.
JG: Right.
HH: I thought that was very, very important, because it is repeating
itself again in this era. We’ve got to get inside the home, we’ve got
to get our hands on the kids.
JG: Right, right. That is one of the things that links today’s
progressives, yesteryear’s progressives, fascists, socialists, all of
them want to crack the outer shell of the sovereign family and get
inside. You know, Hitler has this saying where he says I don’t care
what you think, because your children belong to me. Woodrow Wilson,
when he’s the president of Princeton University, he says the chief job
of an educator must be to make your children as unlike you as possible.
Hillary Clinton, who we’ll get to, obviously, she says in 1996 that we
have to move beyond the idea that there’s any such thing as someone
else’s child. And so Croly, he represents all of these ideas. He
represents the idea that we need to have public-private partnerships,
where government and corporations work together. The idea that we need
wars for a moral tonic at home, the idea that we need to have, to get
rid of individuals and laissez-faire capitalism, all this kind of
stuff, almost every single thing that defines a fascist, you can find
in Herbert Croly. And he remains a hero of the American left, and it’s
amazing. If you read the academic literature, you’ll have some people
actually say things like well, Croly may seem like a fascist, but of
course he’s not, but they never explain why he’s not a fascist. I spent
months trying to figure out whey they thought he wasn’t a fascist.
HH:
Now along comes the return to normalcy, and Harding arrives, and
Coolidge behind him, and Hoover behind him. And they manage to turn
back the explosion of statism, and of sort of totalitarian fascism that
had been creeping in. But then arrives the Depression, and we turn, and
this is the important part I want to get to, and again, I mentioned it
in the last hour, the Blue Eagle, the eagle, is the same eagle that’s
riding over Hitler’s Germany. It’s sort of the symbolism of soaring
state power, and the NRA represents, and I think you depict it quite
well in detail, the triumph of the state over individual capital
enterprise.
JG: That’s right. I mean, quick back story, the old right always
used to say well, the New Dealers, they were just trying to do what the
Soviets were doing, because they all…and there were a lot of Reds, and
a lot of spies among the New Dealers, so it’s understandable that they
would think that, but one of the novel arguments I make in the book is
that no, while these New Dealers, they looked to Mussolini’s Italy, and
they looked to the Soviet Union for confirmation of their ideas, and
they really did look to those countries for confirmation of their
ideas, what they were trying to do was re-establish what they had under
Woodrow Wilson in his war socialism. And they said so explicitly. FDR
grounds his entire New Deal in the legal foundations of the Alien And
Sedition Acts, everything that Woodrow Wilson had done. And these New
Dealers, their rallying cry in the 1920’s was we planned in war. So now
we should be able to plan in peace for running the economy. So when the
New Deal comes, they have this playbook that they’d had, and they just
go back to it. And so for example, Hugh Johnson, who runs the signature
program of the New Deal, which is the National Recovery Administration,
he ran the draft for the War Industries Board under Woodrow Wilson.
Remember, FDR had worked under Woodrow Wilson
HH: Right.
JG: They’re all Wilson retreads in the New Deal administration. And
the first thing Hugh Johnson does is he sets up his office to run the
NRA, and he hangs up a portrait of Benito Mussolini, and starts handing
out tracts the Italian fascist tract, The Corporate State. And he gives
it to Francis Perkins and other members of the Cabinet. During the
Democratic convention of 1932, he distributed a memo saying that FDR
needs to become like Mussolini, and ship all of every member of
Congress and the entire Supreme Court to an island for 90 days, so we
could really get things done.
HH: But you know, I put down your book with a greater respect for
FDR, because it was all at his feet. He could have taken a lot more
than he took. He could have been not Mussolini, but close, because
people were willing to do anything in those period of years.
JG: That’s right. Walter Lippmann, the hero of American liberal pundits to this day, begged FDR to become a dictator.
HH: As did…and they didn’t think that was a bad thing.
JG: That’s right.
HH: Like in Ancient Rome.
HH:
And so the left goes into abeyance for a while during the Eisenhower
years, and Truman would have nothing to do with this. But they nest in
the universities, and what’s very interesting to me is when they break
out in the SDS rise in the Weatherman and the Cornell incident.
JG:
Well, I think part of it was, you know, there’s a reason why I have two
chapters on the 60’s, because there were really two groups on the left.
There were the radicals in the street, best epitomized really by the
Black Panthers. I love people who say there was no fascism on the left,
and here was a paramilitary organization that was dedicated to the
violent overthrow of the U.S. government, and racial separatism, for a
racially superior group, but just because they’re black, they can’t be
fascist.
HH: Right.
JG: You know, and the SDS called them our Viet Cong. They loved the
Black Panthers. Hillary Clinton volunteers to help work on a Black
Panther murder trial. And that sort of gives you the sense of where
they go. They realized that radicalism doesn’t work, and then they
have, you know, what Gramsci called the long march through the
institutions. And you have Hillary Clinton realizing that she’s got to
work within the corridors of power. She says so pretty explicitly these
days. She says I don’t really care about unity that much, I care about
power and getting my things done and all the rest, and that’s not
entirely truly, because she really, I think, does care about unity, but
she wants it on her terms alone. And they work through the system. And
I think it’s worth pointing out, though, that you can still tell where
people come down about how they view the 1960’s. If you actually view
what the SDS did, and what the Black Panthers did, or what they did at
Cornell, I mean, it should tell you something when Walter Burns reads
speeches by Benito Mussolini to his students at Cornell, and doesn’t
tell them they’re by Mussolini, the kids are like right on, dig it,
what a great thing, and then he says oh, well, this is by Mussolini.
HH: And Peter Berger...
JG: Yeah.
HH: Left wing socialist, I believe you quote him as saying that
which happened in the 60’s reminded him of what happened to him in the
30’s in Europe.
JG: That’s right. It’s vital to remember that fascism, Italian
fascism and German national socialism, were both explicitly and
aggressively marketed as youth movements. They were youth movements.
Italy, in the New York Times, had huge spreads about the youth movement
in Italy. And it was seen as the sort of seizing of youth, overthrowing
these old, decaying dogmas of liberal democracy and all of the rest.
And it emphasized all of the…the youth movements emphasized all the
same fascist themes again and again – action over talk. You know, the
SDS broke into what they called action factions and all the rest.
HH:
One of the key insights you have, it’s on Page 199, the vital lie of
the left, you call it, the lie of the left. “If we could only rekindle
the hope and ambition of those early radicals, what might have been
will turn into what still could be.” This is, by the way, the theme of
Tom Brokaw’s Boom. I interviewed Brokaw for an entire show, and all of
his, these nostalgic look-backs at the 60’s, that airbrush the deep,
deep lust for power of these people…
JG: Right.
HH: …and their continuing campaign to centralize power in their
hands, and it really is now, we’re up to it in two ways – the Obama
boom and the Hillary boom on one hand. And you talk about green
fascism. Expand a little bit on what green fascism is.
JG: Well, you know, first of all, it’s worth pointing out the Nazis
were committed environmentalists. They had a very similar worldview to
what we get from a lot of the green left today. And that worldview,
what makes it fascistic, because I get a lot of criticism, I mean, a
lot of criticism from people saying oh, well, you’re saying because
Hitler was a vegetarian, that vegetarians are Nazis. I’m not saying
anything remotely like that. What I am saying is that there was a
worldview that comes with sort of eco-fascism. And there’s a lot of
very high end academic writing on this, that is holistic, that sees
that everything works together, that there are, there can be no islands
of separateness. And in political science, to say a system that
believes in no islands of separateness is called totalitarianism. And
environmentalism, there’s a reason why the Brits call them watermelons.
They’re greens on the outside, and Reds on the inside. They use
environmentalism as a means by which to organize the entire warp and
woof of society.
HH: And they use a crisis, or the theory of crisis, to demand immediate action.
JG: The theory of crisis, that’s right. That’s right. You know, Al
Gore constantly says the time for discussion is over. I’m sorry, in a
democracy, the time for discussion really is almost never over, at
least, and except not for war. But that’s what they want to do, is
create the moral equivalent of war, going back to James. They want to
create these artificial crises. You know, Hillary Clinton has dozens of
crises – the health care crises, the day care crisis. You know, she
goes through all of these things, and they’re all used as
rationalizations to get people to drop their peacetime objections to
what they want to do, and join with the program. And this fascist theme
comes up across the American left. It’s part of their rhetoric. When
they say, you know, Hillary Clinton always says we need to move beyond
our ideological differences. We need to move beyond our partisan
differences. Now I’ve been in this business for a while now. You’ve
been doing this for a long time. I have never met anybody who’s ever
said that we need to move beyond our ideological differences, we need
to move beyond our partisan differences, unity is so important, I’m
going to give up everything I believe and agree with you.
HH: Now Jonah, the key is, though, and we’re going to
come back to this after break, we now have two temptations. We’ve got
the cool leftists, represented by Barack and Michelle Obama, and the
old, boring, long-hair hippy leftists that are very uncool in this
appeal. In your opinion, who wants more power?
JG: I think the Hillary old school guys want more power. It is their
own self-rationalization for it. I think, I mean, one of the appealing
things I think you’ll agree about Obama is his naivete. I mean, there’s
this idea that really words have this power to transform us and pull us
out of history. And so I don’t think they really appreciate how much of
what they’re really talking about is just getting power. Well, Hillary
knows what she wants.
HH:
Jonah, reading Liberal Fascism, I come across the recognition, I knew
it, but I didn’t really confront it, that Saul Alinsky has two
candidates for the Democratic nomination. And not just people who read
his books, people who worked for him. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama
are both Alinskyites.
JG:
If you just read what he writes about power and of winning the
institutions, of crushing your enemies, I mean, he just reads like a
fascist.
HH: Conflict all the time, conflict all the time.
JG: Right.
HH: Well, listen, here’s some rhetoric not from either of the two,
but from Michelle Obama. I want to know if you hear in it any echoes.
Cut number one.
MO: In 2008, we are still a nation that is too divided. We live
in isolation, and because of that isolation, we fear one another. We
don’t know our neighbors. We don’t talk. We believe that our pain is
our own. We don’t realize that the struggles and challenges of all of
us are the same. We are too isolated. And we are still a nation that is
still too cynical. We look at it as them and they as opposed to us. We
don’t engage, because we are still too cynical.
HH: Cut number two:
MO: Don’t get sick in this country, not here. Americans are in
debt not because they live frivolously, but because someone got sick.
And even with insurance, the deductibles and premiums are so high that
people are still putting medication treatments on credit cards. And
they can’t get out from under. I could go on and on and on, but this is
how we’re living, people, in 2008. And things have gotten progressively
worse throughout my lifetime, through Democratic and Republican
administrations. It hasn’t gotten better for regular folks.
HH: We’ve got four more cuts, Jonah, but I want to get your opinion
at this point. Things have gotten progressively worse for at least
sixteen years.
JG: Yeah, no it’s an amazing thing. And if we elect the right
president, all of a sudden, I’m going to get to know my neighbor
(laughing). What?
HH: But the continuing crisis, right?
JG: Yeah, yeah.
HH: Isn’t that part of the playbook?
JG: Right, that we’re on this incredible, inevitable slippery slope
to evil, and the only thing we can do is we need a leader who
personifies the people, personifies unity, who will unify and rally the
nation in his spirit, and be our savior. And that’s how Obama is
running, is he’s running as a secular savior.
HH: Cut number three:
MO: We have lost the understanding that in a democracy, we have a
mutual obligation to one another, that we cannot measure our greatness
in this society by the strongest and richest of us, but we have to
measure out greatness by the least of these, that we have to compromise
and sacrifice for one another in order to get things done. That is why
I’m here, because Barack Obama is the only person in this race who
understands that, that before we can work on the problems, we have to
fix our souls. Our souls are broken in this nation.
HH: Jonah Goldberg?
JG: Mother of pearl. My God. You know, it’s amazing what it reminded
me of, is Hillary Clinton’s speech at Wellesley when she graduates. She
says we’re not interested in social reconstruction, we’re…no, we’re
interested in human reconstruction. She wants to create, recreate new
men. The desire to create new men and fix souls, you know, that gets to
the heart of this drumbeat over the 20th Century.
HH: The next Michelle Obama cut:
MO: If we can’t see ourselves in one another, we will never make
those sacrifices. So I am here right now, because I am married to the
only person in this race who has a chance of healing this nation.
HH: Jonah?
JG: (sigh)
HH: Have you heard this before?
JG: No, I hadn’t. I hadn’t. She’s going to, you know, I mean, my husband will express the Volksgemeinschaft (laughing)
HH: Wait until Duane has to transcribe that one. One more…we’ve got
to go to break, or do we have time for one more? Oh, we’ll come back.
Jonah Goldberg, when I heard these things after having read Liberal
Fascism, I said this is exactly what you were talking about.
JG: Yeah.
HH: These themes to power, to urgency, to crisis, to the one man,
and to the mass nationalization…when we come back, can conservatives do
anything to stop it? What’s your quick preview?
JG: Yes, but it’s going to be hard.
HH: How do they do it?
JG: It’s a door to door fight. It’s the same fight we had against
communism. The idea that government can love you is the central myth
that conservatives are always going to have to fight.
- - - -
HH: Cut number five for Jonah Goldberg:
MO: Barack, as Oprah said, is one of the most brilliant men you
will meet in our lifetime. Barack is more than ready. He’ll be ready
today, he’ll be ready on Day One, he’ll be ready in a year from now,
five years from now. He is ready. That is not the question. The
question is what are we ready for? Wait, wait, wait, because we’re
ready for change. We say we’re ready for change, but see, change is
hard. Change will always be hard. And it doesn’t happen from the top
down. We do not get universal health care, we don’t get better schools
because somebody else is in the White House. We get change because
folks from the grass roots up decide they are sick and tired of other
people telling them how their lives will be, when they decide to roll
up their sleeves and work. And Barack Obama will require you to work.
He is going to demand that you shed your cynicism, that you put down
your division, that you come out of your isolation, that you move out
of your comfort zones, that you push yourselves to be better, and that
you engage. Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as
usual, uninvolved, uninformed.
HH: Jonah Goldberg, we’re looking at each other as we hear this, because this is the antithesis of limited government.
JG: That’s right. It is, you know, it is the collective matters, it
is this cult of unity. The central theme of the book, in many ways, is
that all these isms of the left, socialism, fascism, communism, they’re
all political religions. They’re all the misapplication of religious
principles to politics. And you know, Obama has said on the stump that
we can create a kingdom of Heaven on Earth. His advance people, when
they go around, they’re told not to talk…this was in the New York Times
yesterday, they’re told not to talk about issue. They’re supposed to
testify about how they have “come to Obama”, you know, instead of come
to Jesus. And it reminds me a bit of the 1912 Progressive Party
convention. They changed the words of We Will Follow Jesus to We Will
Follow Roosevelt. And it also, too, was like a religious revival. This
has, you know, when you listen to Obama, when he talks about we are the
change we have been waiting for, there is this incredible messianic
feel to it. And he may be a decent and honorable man, I think he almost
certainly is, but I don’t think he has any conception of the kind of
emotional and political passions that he’s toying with when he tries to
promise people that simply by rallying around a national leader who
expresses their national will and their spirit and all the rest, that
he can deliver us to someplace outside of history, to this new sunny
upland, you know, utopia. That is dangerous stuff, and when you unleash
that in politics, it almost never ends well.
Recent Comments